What the hell is this sentence, no seriously what

[highlyeccentric]

monksandbones, any other stray Latinists, halp? (13th c hagiography)

Semel aut secundo vel tertio flagitatus a vobis, ac si non esset Propheta in Israël, ut [Col. 0479F] ad ædificationem Virginum & generationis venturæ devotionem augendam, Matris vestræ, videlicet S. Dympnæ Virginis & Martyris, passionis historiam, quæ per eorum desidiam, qui tunc erant, nondum sacræ litterarum memoriæ commendata, sub modio silentii latuerat nimis diu; de vulgari eloquio in Latinum redigerem idioma; crebro mecum deliberans acquiescere formidavi.

What I'm getting from this

Once, or a second indeed a third time it has been demanded by you, that [for the edification of virgins and the augmentation of the devotion of generations to come], the story of the passion of your mother, that is St Dympna Virgin and Martyr [SUBORDINATE CLAUSES*], I should render from the vulgar tongue into Latin idiom; [SOMETHING ABOUT AGREEMENTS**].

That's my main clause, right?

* Subordinate clauses: I want this to say "which, through their laziness, which they were [doing, practicing], not yet committed to the sacred memory of literature, had lain under a bushel very much for a long time in silence" . Does that... work? I assume the laziness is being done or practiced by the people of the monastery or something?

** "often deliberating with me i was afraid to agree"??? Wtf?? Or is that deliberating with MYSELF I was afraid to agree (to this request)? That might work, the next line goes on about being presumptuous etc.

Comments

[monksandbones]

Oh man, that is a sentence, and the part that I am still puzzling over is the "ac si non esset Propheta in Israël." But as for the rest, as far as I can tell you have the main clause right.

As for the subordinate clauses, I think it should be "which, through the laziness of them/of those people, who were then (ie. through the laziness of the people who were around at the time of Saint Dympna), having not yet been committed to the sacred memory of letters/literatuer, had lain for a long time etc."

I'd translate the last bit as "often deliberating with myself I was afraid to agree.

[highlyeccentric]

You should see the sentence BEFORE it. It has no verbs. I eventually figured out it was some kind of "so and so, to so and so, greetings with various flowery elaborations" and elected to ignore it.

Oh, yeah, ac si non esset Propheta! I left that out of my translation, it was supposed to go in the subordinate footnotes. Something like "as if there were no prophet in Israel?" I can't find anything on "ac si" or "ac si non" as conjunctions. Ac si ought to be 'and if'... but... wtf.

[highlyeccentric]

ok, so throwing "non propheta in Israel" at google didn't get me anything useful, but "ac si non esset" did.

Observe:
quasi praedestinatus si velit non posit in oppositam partem illud flectere non secus ac si non esset praedestinatus

Which is from i have no idea what but it's dense and theological and the edition is german. Point being, google translate thinks the last bit comes to 'just as if there were no predestination', and the next sentence seems to be on the same structure - "thing and thingy wouldn't happen if it weren't as if it were predestined".

Google translate could be wrong about "just as if", but "ac si non esset" does seem to be a construction. Thoughts?

[monksandbones]

I thought more about this in the shower, and I think "ac si non propheta in Israel" might be part of a conditional sentence with "crebro mecum deliberans acquiescere formidavi."

As in "Once, or a second indeed a third time it has been demanded by you, and if there were not a Prophet in Israel, I was afraid, often deliberating with myself, to agree that for the edification of virgins etc."

[highlyeccentric]

... oh fuck. That makes sense but it's also EVIL. WHAT THE HELL, Peter of Cambrai. WHY????

[highlyeccentric]

Likewise from the Summa Theologiae vol 40:

et qui nulla modo est peccandum, pro eodem est habendum si sacerdos absque pretio baptizare non velit, ac si non esset qui baptizaret

Which seems to be something about if priests won't baptize without cash then it shall be "as if there had been no baptism"?

[monksandbones]

Okay, "as if" is helpful, see my comment above but make it "as if there had not been a Prophet in Israel, I was afraid, often deliberating with myself, to agree that for the edification of virgins etc."

[highlyeccentric]

WHY LATIN, WHY.

I thought I had a 17th c translation of this, but what I have is a 17th c paraphrase that is NOT AS COMPLETELY MAD.

[monksandbones]

WHY LATIN WHY, and WHY SNEAK SEVENTEENTH CENTURY PARAPHRASES WHY!

[highlyeccentric]

Another question would be "why is Amy doing this for a SUPPLEMENTARY source to her thesis?". Answer: because the life of St Dympna is hilarious and more people should care about it.

[monksandbones]

*Pounds on desk* PUBLISHED TRANSLATION! PUBLISHED TRANSLATION!

[highlyeccentric]

... that's actually not the stupidest idea ever. I mean, *I* don't have the Latin chops for it but I *am* assembling a huge amount of data on incest narratives and shit like that. I could write a pretty damn convincing introduction and set of notes, probably. Latinists can be found. *eyes you*

[highlyeccentric]

I mean not NOW, but eventually I will have a sold chapter on incest narratives and a rough translation of this damn thing, the list of "mad post-thesis ideas" now includes "get regan tipsy and make a translation"

[monksandbones]

Yess I approve this item on your list of "mad post-thesis ideas." I don't even need much alcohol to get tipsy!!

[highlyeccentric]

Everyone could use some "well that's left-of-field" items on their CV. Admittedly at this rate mine is going to be ALL left of field, over the boundary and off with the fairies. (I have a chapter coming out entitled "Lancelot in the Friend Zone, I'm so proud)

[highlyeccentric]

Got into a wrangle with minion R, had brainwave, searched internet for "atque si", figuring that 'ac si' could be a medieval thing (given atque is only SUPPOSED to appear before vowels) (no wait atque is for vowels ignore me). Lo, I found a nice sentence of Tertullian:

Igitur qui careant sensu, illorum erit perinde uti ea re, cuius careant sensu, atque si abuti eo uellent, si sensu non
carerent

Which i can easily cross-reference with online translations, as meaning "Wanting, then, the sense, it will be theirs to use the thing for which the sense is wanting, just as if in full possession of the sense they wished to abuse it."

Conclusion: these people wail JUST AS IF there were no prophet in Israel, and this guy debates with himself, afraid to agree that he ought to write etc etc (subj of obligation, yeah?)

[highlyeccentric]

through the laziness of them/of those people, who were then

OH. I've seen that construction in OE! Right. Those people who were at that time. Got it.

THANK YOU.

... i'm basically gonna do a sentence of this evil fucking thing every day for... uh, eight pages in the Bollandist edition. And swear at it. A lot. Wtf were you smoking, Peter of Cambrai? Was there need for a future passive participle? Does ANYONE need a future passive participle? NO THEY DO NOT.

[monksandbones]

The sentence a day approach sounds good - I mean, it looks like a sentence is also going to be good for an hour a day, but at least they're long sentences that will add up and get you somewhere?

I am here for your crunchy Latin problems, though (although also prepared to defer to better Latinists if any show up)!

[highlyeccentric]

Also most of the things I need for this are in the first page of the thing, and I can tell from the margin notes where the rest will be. So it might not be one CONSECUTIVE sentence per day. I'm only doing this preamble thing because my Latin is super rusty and it's safer to start at the beginning. Plus that way you get a sense for the particular writer's quirks. It SHOULD get easier when I hit the actual plot.

Expect more shouting and crying about Latin anon!