highlyeccentric: (Beliefs and Ideas)
Recommendation: the first episode of the "Ill Concieved" podcast, which promises to be a podcast about natalism. Their first episode is Promise Keepers.

Note: I had a complex reaction to this content. The dominant one is actually a sort of relief in finding someone in 2025 of vaguely my demographic digging into this. I recognise Promise Keepers. I don't think I know anyone who went to a Promise Keepers rally (I'm not even sure if there WERE such rallies in Aus), but I definitely heard people talk about the Important Movement which Ill Concieved delightfully describe as "700,000 Dicks Out For Jesus".

However. I was a left-ish, liturgy-friendly Protestant growing up around charismatic and Pentecostal-leaning evangelicals. I dealt with this by Reading Up, particularly once I got academic library access and could search the keywords which my confirmation mentor had mentioned. Marion Maddox's "God Under Howard" is in my top five formative books, I reckon. I also read a fair bit of Karen Armstrong, which I realise is not the BEST one could read, but several points which were jarring to me in that episode come under the heading of "wait, Karen Armstrong can and does explain this, I'm open to other explanations but you're just saying it's Odd?".

Consequently, I ended up posting a mini-essay in skeets. I reproduce it here with corrected punctuation.




Recommendation: this.

Additional note: it’s a little weird to me, someone who dealt with growing up around charismatic evangelicals by researching as much on the history of both Pentecostalism and evangelical movements as I could get my teenage hands on, to hear @ junlper.beer repeatedly surprised about the multi-racial makeup of Promise Keepers. “Revival” style evangelical movements in the US have historic roots in African-American evangelical movements, and Pentecostalism in the US traces back to a Black revivalist preacher in early 20th c LA.

Pentecostalism didn’t get integrated into “mainline” evangelism until the 80s or so - many regarded them as indecorous, which no doubt had a lot to do with race. But folding Pentecostal practices and beliefs in with other charismatic evangelicals allowed the charismatic sectors of some of the major denominations to really strengthen their dominance over the evangelical cultural landscape.

Summary One: you thought the filioque dispute was difficult, you thought reformation predistination disputes were arcane, you try not to think about Arianism... I give you: subdivisions of charismatic and pentecostal protestantism )

Summary two: some Protestants will do literally anything to avoid endorsing sacramentalism, including... whatever the fuck happened with Pentecostalism.

---

*Obligatory citation to Marion Maddox's "God Under Howard".
highlyeccentric: (Beliefs and Ideas)
I think this happened in 2002, maybe 2003. It was after Sept 11 2001, because the teacher in question didn't come to our school until 2002.

Evangelical Christians believe they are under attack - spiritually, materially, socially. They are taught to see threats everywhere, and to rehearse responses to it. There was a version of the story of the Columbine massacre in which one of the students in the library was asked, before being shot, 'Do you believe in God?' and answered 'yes'. We were given exerpts of a biography and versions of the story to read, to internalise, to _fantasise about dying under fire_.

(I now find a. that that version has been discredited and b. this was not a feature of the entire massacre)
(and now I teach medieval studies and find myself faced with students who don't instinctively understand the point of marytrologies)

At some point in 2002, or maybe 2003, a student - a personable, charming guy, I'd had a crush on him for most of junior high - asked our English teacher, for reasons I can't recall, 'If the muslims invaded and you had to either convert or die, would you be willing to die for Jesus?'

And she said no.

She said no, if she was at gunpoint she would convert. To Islam, or anything else. She said she would hold her faith in God in her heart and hope for change, but she knew she didn't have the courage to die.

(There was no point in trying to point out the structural issues here - that since Sept 11 2001 the fantasies of dying at the hands of atheists or oppression by The World had taken on a specific, and racist, cast. To single THIS fantasy out as specifically weird would have encountered mostly blank faces, because they - we - had been being trained for years to envision life-or-death tests of faith. Life, death or premarital sex.)

This was not well-received in this classroom, but it stuck with me. I instantly recognised myself: I, too, would convert.

(I am pretty sure this teacher had universalist tendencies as strong as my own.)

The same teacher taught senior religious studies, and let me do my special topic research on Islam.

I don't have a conclusion here, except to say that: this was a completely normal conversation in my school. Fantasies of martyrdom at the hands of a religious group we had never even met. And that one teacher had the courage to puncture the bubble and say 'no. We don't all have to be martyrs'.

She wasn't a perfect teacher by any means, but I respect her for that. She had the courage to speak an unwanted truth in the face of consequences far more immediate than martyrdom - the mockery of teenagers, the loss of social capital, damage to her standing in the eyes of staff and parents. We don't all have to be martyrs, and probably most of us wouldn't, and frankly it was fucking weird to train us to expect we would.




( Related, one of the things I am most ashamed of in my life is an occasion when I had taken a friend to an evangelical church service and, because she wanted to, I went through the process of 'dedicating my life to Jesus'

Not because I didn't believe. I did. I was a very devout child. But because I did not have any sense that I /invited jesus into my heart/ that day - I firmly believed I was a christian and had always been. I went through the happy-clappy and the laying on of hands and I felt /dirty/. I did not have the courage to say 'no, this isn't for me, this is not my experience of faith, this is an insult to the baptism my parents gave me and the confirmation I expect to fulfil in my home congregation')

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