Oh yes, that might actually mess with my head more. I find psychology to be fascinating in certain areas. What the human mind is capable of doing to itself is amazing. I'm actually reading a non-fiction book right now about a girl who was insane and "came back" to sanity. I find it terribly interesting but also the kind of thing that I could keep me up thinking at night. I think we could all potentially be right on the edge of sanity anyway, and it's interesting to think about what keeps each person from it.
On another note... can I ask why you don't believe in the existence of angels and demons? I thought the Bible was really clear on them.
Greek word, angelos, messenger. So, to pick the angels i've looked at most recently, in Revelations you have letters to seven churches, opening with: 'To the angel of the Church in Laodicea, write...' (or Symra, ect) I read this as 'to the messenger (spokesperson) of the Church in Such-and-Such-a-place'. Probably their bishop.
To me, it just complicates things to believe in God having angels to act for him on earth... i'd rather believe in a God who is living among us, who acts in and through us.
a lot of the angel-stuff in the bible is either 'an angel appeared to them', which to me means that God presented his message in some way or another- be it through a manifestation of an 'angel' which mankind understands, or through someone acting as 'messenger' on behalf of God, or them simply having a divine inspiration.
The angel & demon-olgy is to me myth. Which is to say, a cultural expression which carries a truth which is outside of 'fact'. I approach it in much the same way as I approach Genisis 1 & 2 (i'm a theistic evolutionist). For me the truth in the concept of angels & demons is that *Evil exists *God acts against evil. (in very simple terms, but that's it).
I'm fascinated with angels as an image or metaphor, but no, I don't literally believe in them.
That's cool that you researched the greek angelos. I just did the same thing a few weeks ago when my OT professor challanged us with the fact that angels are never mentioned as having wings. She was right.
However.... things like Seraphim, and Cherubim are very clearly mentioned as having wings, and their appearances are described in Ezekiel, and their functions also in Daniel. I think what we generally picture as "angels" are really cherubim and seraphim. Wheras when angels are mentioned in the Bible it could be a person of God's choosing, or a manifestation of any creature God chose (seraphim, cherubim, God himself, something else), but 'angels' always appear as men (though we are led to believe there is something supernatural about them, as they seem to be able to appear in odd places at odd times). The Bible is also clear that Satan was a Cherubim (Ezekial 28:14), so we know he's got wings and has a specific true appearance, though (like the angels?) he is able to appear in other forms as well. (he is also mentioned as appearing as an "angel of light" (2 Corinthians 11:14) ) Demons are rather clear in existence as well, because Jesus cast them out of people. Not only that but he had conversations with some, and spoke about them more than once. So they are clearly beings. Whether or not they are in their typical mythological form is quite debateble. But the Bible mentions that when Satan (a cherubim) fell from God's favor, he took one third of the stars with him. This is obviously a metaphor, and most scholars agree it means he took one third of the heavenly beings with him in his fall. Whether the heavenly beings are "angels," cherubim, seraphim, or some other unspecified heavenly creatures is not specifically known. But their existence doesn't seem to be in any doubt by Jesus and his disciples, nor is their ability to possess. I'd get into this in more detail, but at the moment it's 2am and I have to wake up at 6:30 >
thing is, i don't believe in Satan either ;) nor seraphim, cherubim, or any of those things.
sorry to say, i haven't done my own research with 'angelos' and various other things- it's been taught to me by assorted wisdiful people along the way.
Satan, in the hebrew original, is reffered to by several different names... can't remember what they are, off the top of my head, but the word we use today 'Satan', comes from the Hebrew 'Satan' (pronounced Sa-tān, i believe), meaning 'Adversary', which in turn comes from the Hebrew verb 'to plot against'.
To me, 'Satan' is an anthropormorphic personification of evil, rather than a factual entiry. Evil being something we need to struggle (or plot ;) ) against.
Ezekiel... he was a prophet. Prophets use figurative and metaphorical- mythical- language to freight their message, to hit the cultural buttons of their audience. I haven't studied Ezekiel in depth, beyond the valley of bones segment, so i can't really comment on what's going on there, except that he's living in a time when Isreal has fallen into a spiritual and political slump. However, the first thing i would do if i was going to study this section would be to look at the context, and at the typical forms of myth used by prophets before him, at what religious and political concepts from outside Israel the people might be in conflict with, and then ask: so what did this mean to his Israelite audience at the time? how is this meaning relevant today?
In a really really short summary, the method i use for interpreting anything, but especially biblical text, is Paul Ricoeur's hermeneutical system: behind, within, in front. Behind being the cultural understandings and context; within being the meaning expressed in those cultural concepts, and in front being its practical relevance today.
you've got me intruiged about Ezekiel now, i'll suggest we study that next year :)
;) do keep pulling my theory apart, when you have time. 'tis good for me, and highly interesting to boot.
Ok, took me a while to get around to it, but here's what I've got on Satan and Devils.
References to Satan: In the Old Testament (Hebrew) - Satan - an opponent; adversary New Testament (Greek)- Satanas - the accuser
However "Satan" is referred to as a definite person, not just any enemy. In Job we see him appearing before God, God speaks to him, and allows him certain powers over Job. One cannot speak to and give specific powers to evil in general. So while "Satan" means adversary, that is the name given to a specific adversary. Just like we refer to Jehovah as "God," God is simply a title that describes what he is, it's not his name. The specific adversary "Satan" refers to is one fallen from God's favor. That particular instance is spoken of in Isaiah 14. (How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. etc. and so on) Though one could argue that the instances where people speak to Satan are figurative, one could say that about the whole Bible, or any part one chooses. I think Satan as a specific person is far too consistent a theme throughout the whole Bible, it seems quite a stretch for us to dismiss all those parts as figurative.
Also, if one dismisses Satan as figurative, then where has evil originated? And if as Revelation says Hell is a place prepared for Satan, do we also dismiss it? (and in that case Heaven as well?)
Moving then to demons.
Jesus actually had a conversation with demons.
Matthew 8 28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. 29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? 30 And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding. 31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine. 32 And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.
The word used for demon here is the greek "daimonion", which means "a supernatural spirit (of a bad nature)" References to demons throughout the New Testament are rather consistent in this definition from what I've found. But the conversation Jesus had with them is important because it shows it's not just an evil force, it/they have a personality and a will.
Hell: Hebrew - sheol - the world of the dead Greek - hades - the place of departed souls Greek - geenna - Gehenna, a valley of Jerusalem used (fig) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell
Hell is mentioned in 10 books of the Old Testament, and 7 books of the New Testament. It is a consistent theme throughout the Bible of being a place of punishment for not following God.
Jesus also speaks of Hell in Matthew, Mark, and Luke (using both Greek words) as a place of judgement or condemnation. He uses the word damnation (ex. Matt. 23:33) which is the Greek word "krima."
I got all these definitions from Strong's Exhaustive Concordance.
Also... Why NOT believe Satan and Demons (and Angels) exist? Is there evidence in the Bible AGAINST them being actual persons?
As for Ezekiel, I shall have to look into him another time. I did briefly look up Cherubim and Seraphim and found that most references to Cherub/Cherubim in the Bible are referring to the statues in the Temple, but they are mentioned as actual living beings in Genesis, Psalms, Ezekial, and Hebrews. Seraphim are mentioned by name only in Isaiah, but are referred to as living beings. However supernatural beings are mentioned throughout the Bible, usually under the title of messengers of God (angels).
Well if we're on the edge of sanity, we're also on the edge of insanity, no? So no it wasn't a typo. I find it fascinating at the same time, to learn what type of thing drives people to insanity. I always want to try to understand insane characters in books and movies, because I feel there has to be a REASON. Some of my favorite characters in movies, books, and video games are the crazy ones. I just wrote a paper on the suicide of a crazy character for my lit class.
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branchandroot
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Date: 2005-10-31 06:06 am (UTC)On another note... can I ask why you don't believe in the existence of angels and demons? I thought the Bible was really clear on them.
no subject
Date: 2005-10-31 06:30 am (UTC)well, starting with angels:
Greek word, angelos, messenger. So, to pick the angels i've looked at most recently, in Revelations you have letters to seven churches, opening with:
'To the angel of the Church in Laodicea, write...' (or Symra, ect)
I read this as 'to the messenger (spokesperson) of the Church in Such-and-Such-a-place'. Probably their bishop.
To me, it just complicates things to believe in God having angels to act for him on earth... i'd rather believe in a God who is living among us, who acts in and through us.
a lot of the angel-stuff in the bible is either 'an angel appeared to them', which to me means that God presented his message in some way or another- be it through a manifestation of an 'angel' which mankind understands, or through someone acting as 'messenger' on behalf of God, or them simply having a divine inspiration.
The angel & demon-olgy is to me myth. Which is to say, a cultural expression which carries a truth which is outside of 'fact'. I approach it in much the same way as I approach Genisis 1 & 2 (i'm a theistic evolutionist). For me the truth in the concept of angels & demons is that
*Evil exists
*God acts against evil.
(in very simple terms, but that's it).
I'm fascinated with angels as an image or metaphor, but no, I don't literally believe in them.
no subject
Date: 2005-10-31 06:54 am (UTC)However.... things like Seraphim, and Cherubim are very clearly mentioned as having wings, and their appearances are described in Ezekiel, and their functions also in Daniel. I think what we generally picture as "angels" are really cherubim and seraphim. Wheras when angels are mentioned in the Bible it could be a person of God's choosing, or a manifestation of any creature God chose (seraphim, cherubim, God himself, something else), but 'angels' always appear as men (though we are led to believe there is something supernatural about them, as they seem to be able to appear in odd places at odd times).
The Bible is also clear that Satan was a Cherubim (Ezekial 28:14), so we know he's got wings and has a specific true appearance, though (like the angels?) he is able to appear in other forms as well. (he is also mentioned as appearing as an "angel of light" (2 Corinthians 11:14) )
Demons are rather clear in existence as well, because Jesus cast them out of people. Not only that but he had conversations with some, and spoke about them more than once. So they are clearly beings. Whether or not they are in their typical mythological form is quite debateble. But the Bible mentions that when Satan (a cherubim) fell from God's favor, he took one third of the stars with him. This is obviously a metaphor, and most scholars agree it means he took one third of the heavenly beings with him in his fall. Whether the heavenly beings are "angels," cherubim, seraphim, or some other unspecified heavenly creatures is not specifically known. But their existence doesn't seem to be in any doubt by Jesus and his disciples, nor is their ability to possess.
I'd get into this in more detail, but at the moment it's 2am and I have to wake up at 6:30 >
no subject
Date: 2005-10-31 07:40 am (UTC)thing is, i don't believe in Satan either ;) nor seraphim, cherubim, or any of those things.
sorry to say, i haven't done my own research with 'angelos' and various other things- it's been taught to me by assorted wisdiful people along the way.
Satan, in the hebrew original, is reffered to by several different names... can't remember what they are, off the top of my head, but the word we use today 'Satan', comes from the Hebrew 'Satan' (pronounced Sa-tān, i believe), meaning 'Adversary', which in turn comes from the Hebrew verb 'to plot against'.
To me, 'Satan' is an anthropormorphic personification of evil, rather than a factual entiry. Evil being something we need to struggle (or plot ;) ) against.
Ezekiel... he was a prophet. Prophets use figurative and metaphorical- mythical- language to freight their message, to hit the cultural buttons of their audience. I haven't studied Ezekiel in depth, beyond the valley of bones segment, so i can't really comment on what's going on there, except that he's living in a time when Isreal has fallen into a spiritual and political slump. However, the first thing i would do if i was going to study this section would be to look at the context, and at the typical forms of myth used by prophets before him, at what religious and political concepts from outside Israel the people might be in conflict with, and then ask: so what did this mean to his Israelite audience at the time? how is this meaning relevant today?
In a really really short summary, the method i use for interpreting anything, but especially biblical text, is Paul Ricoeur's hermeneutical system: behind, within, in front. Behind being the cultural understandings and context; within being the meaning expressed in those cultural concepts, and in front being its practical relevance today.
you've got me intruiged about Ezekiel now, i'll suggest we study that next year :)
;) do keep pulling my theory apart, when you have time. 'tis good for me, and highly interesting to boot.
no subject
Date: 2005-11-11 07:30 pm (UTC)References to Satan:
In the Old Testament (Hebrew) - Satan - an opponent; adversary
New Testament (Greek)- Satanas - the accuser
However "Satan" is referred to as a definite person, not just any enemy. In Job we see him appearing before God, God speaks to him, and allows him certain powers over Job. One cannot speak to and give specific powers to evil in general.
So while "Satan" means adversary, that is the name given to a specific adversary. Just like we refer to Jehovah as "God," God is simply a title that describes what he is, it's not his name.
The specific adversary "Satan" refers to is one fallen from God's favor. That particular instance is spoken of in Isaiah 14. (How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. etc. and so on)
Though one could argue that the instances where people speak to Satan are figurative, one could say that about the whole Bible, or any part one chooses. I think Satan as a specific person is far too consistent a theme throughout the whole Bible, it seems quite a stretch for us to dismiss all those parts as figurative.
Also, if one dismisses Satan as figurative, then where has evil originated? And if as Revelation says Hell is a place prepared for Satan, do we also dismiss it? (and in that case Heaven as well?)
Moving then to demons.
Jesus actually had a conversation with demons.
Matthew 8
28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. 29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? 30 And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding. 31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine. 32 And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.
The word used for demon here is the greek "daimonion", which means "a supernatural spirit (of a bad nature)"
References to demons throughout the New Testament are rather consistent in this definition from what I've found. But the conversation Jesus had with them is important because it shows it's not just an evil force, it/they have a personality and a will.
Hell:
Hebrew - sheol - the world of the dead
Greek - hades - the place of departed souls
Greek - geenna - Gehenna, a valley of Jerusalem used (fig) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell
Hell is mentioned in 10 books of the Old Testament, and 7 books of the New Testament. It is a consistent theme throughout the Bible of being a place of punishment for not following God.
Jesus also speaks of Hell in Matthew, Mark, and Luke (using both Greek words) as a place of judgement or condemnation. He uses the word damnation (ex. Matt. 23:33) which is the Greek word "krima."
I got all these definitions from Strong's Exhaustive Concordance.
Also... Why NOT believe Satan and Demons (and Angels) exist? Is there evidence in the Bible AGAINST them being actual persons?
As for Ezekiel, I shall have to look into him another time. I did briefly look up Cherubim and Seraphim and found that most references to Cherub/Cherubim in the Bible are referring to the statues in the Temple, but they are mentioned as actual living beings in Genesis, Psalms, Ezekial, and Hebrews.
Seraphim are mentioned by name only in Isaiah, but are referred to as living beings. However supernatural beings are mentioned throughout the Bible, usually under the title of messengers of God (angels).
no subject
Date: 2005-12-21 08:21 am (UTC)You may not be able to see it on your friends page, 'cos LJ hates me at the moment.
no subject
Date: 2005-10-31 06:32 am (UTC)was that a typo? i think you've just stumbled on a universal truth there...
no subject
Date: 2005-10-31 06:38 am (UTC)I find it fascinating at the same time, to learn what type of thing drives people to insanity. I always want to try to understand insane characters in books and movies, because I feel there has to be a REASON.
Some of my favorite characters in movies, books, and video games are the crazy ones. I just wrote a paper on the suicide of a crazy character for my lit class.
no subject
Date: 2005-10-31 07:40 am (UTC)