What are you NOT reading Wednesday

[highlyeccentric]

I recently discovered a podcast called "The Philosophy of Sex", hosted by someone who gives few googleable details about herself, named Caroline. I listened to her interview with Bri Lee and also with Damon Young. I have not read either Lee or Young's books, but I have read their shorter writing and media work, etc. I did not cringe at Caroline's handling of EITHER the criminal-(carceral)-justice focus of Bri Lee OR the queer-kink focus Damon Young has. And, more importantly - given I have cringed at both Lee and Young at different times for wildly different reasons - Caroline's interviewing showed off the best of both of them, or at least the features I consider the most interesting.

Hence, I began with interest her podcast interview with Avgi Saketopoulou, entitled "Sexuality Beyond Consent", concerning the book of that name, full title "Sexuality Beyond Consent: Risk, Race, Traumatophilia"

By traumatophilia, Saketopoulou means the process by which small and large traumas shape our erotic interests. About ten minutes in, I added her book to my tbr. About 40 minutes in, i removed it with strong "I might if it was necessary for academic research but I'm not paid for this anymore" prejudice".

I must stress: until that point, an awful lot of what Saketopoulou had to say resonated with me. She's a therapist: she talks eloquently about how trauma is rarely ever "cured" but can be treated (a phrase she quoted from one of her colleagues: "ghosts become ancestors"). She's interested in taboo, and in the complexity of boundaries. The podcaster, Caroline, was starting to ask her about her idea of "limit consent", shortly before I noped out; certainly Saketopoulou made an eloquent summary of what I find to be Katherine Angel's most compelling point, re the limits of affirmative consent discussed some time ago on here, best chapter reproduced online at Granta.

"Sometimes," says Saketopoulou in this podcast, "We can't know what we want until it is already happening." Note: she does use the positive of want, not the negative; I had to re-listen to check.

For example, says Saketopoulou, this happens in the therapeutic relationship. I am now paraphrasing, but so far quite closely. You can't treat a patient without medical consent to treatment. But consider [paraphrase grows less literal, I am too repelled to reproduce this faithfully] a patient who came to Saketoupoulou, and who by the end of their first meeting was extremely convinced she could benefit from the therapy Saketoupoulou offers. But she was not willing to pay the stipulated fee. She could AFFORD it, Seketoupoulou specifies; but did not wish to pay it. Yet she did not walk out, demanding more time and attention.

So far, so ... actually completely within predictable professional norms, I'd have thought? Not so, Saketoupoulou. Saketoupoulou specifies that the client had not asked her fee, in initial contact. And then moves on to talking about how the client wanted Saketoupoulou to acknowledge that Saketoupoulou had "screwed" her.

... I'm sorry. I can afford no patience for someone who blames the client not asking, rather than saying "my bad, I should've posted my fees online" or "wow, I really didn't train my receptionist properly". You DID screw this client, lady. Granted, you might still encounter that sort of client neediness (eg: person who hoped for fortnightly therapy and has just been told they need biweekly; person who who hoped for concessions you're not willing to give), and if you hadn't already thought about that and developed an Emotional Labour Face for enforcing those boundaries... uh... please talk to your nearest pro sex worker?

In all seriousness, I am deleting this book from my tbr, with prejudice. The described professional scenario is not completely unrelated to sex, but its closest neighbour is abosolutely pro sex work, and I have not known many pro sex workers personally but none of those I do know nor those whose writing I have read would make this careless a conflation between their professional boundaries and the very real risk that someone might commission them to engage in acts that the client can't handle OR with respect to which the client has un-meetable emotional needs.

Also, despite my Australian-ingrained instinct to read her name as racialised, Saketopoulou seems to be Greek, educated at the American College in Greece, and now based in the US, so... no, I don't think I will even gamble on her chances of having a good take on slaveplay (something which the podcast teased early on). I'm not saying I'd EXPECT a Greek Australian to have great takes on that (I acknowledge my prior over-generosity re CS Pacat, Lebanese-Australian) but I might be interested to read, because the way that "off-white" racialised people navigate the racial landscape is interesting... but no, I don't think Saketopoulou is the Greek I'd be looking for. If some American has a review that tackles her work from a race perspective I would read it, but I do not think I will read her book itself unless I am very bored in a library.

This has been: a broad Listening Recommendation for the Philosophy of Sex podcast, and a "don't even bother" anti-rec for Avgi Saketoupoulou.

Comments

[naraht]

Also, despite my Australian-ingrained instinct to read her name as racialised, Saketopoulou seems to be Greek, educated at the American College in Greece, and now based in the US, so... no, I don't think I will even gamble on her chances of having a good take on slaveplay (something which the podcast teased early on). I'm not saying I'd EXPECT a Greek Australian to have great takes on that (I acknowledge my prior over-generosity re CS Pacat, Lebanese-Australian) but I might be interested to read, because the way that "off-white" racialised people navigate the racial landscape is interesting... but no, I don't think Saketopoulou is the Greek I'd be looking for.

This is off topic, so please forgive me, but I'm fascinated: are Greek diaspora people really still racialised in Australia? That was the case in my mother's youth in America, but that was fifty or sixty years ago. Are there other European ethnic groups that fall into the same category in Australia?

[highlyeccentric]

The answer to that is depends on for what purpose, but certainly more so than Italians. In the post-war migration period, Greeks and Italians were racialised as part of the same group (along with Macedonians, but not Turks), but these days, my impression is that Italians have effectively achieved white-aussie-ness, while Greeks are racialised (and often actively co-identify with) Turkish, Lebanese, etc migrant groups. There is, unfortunately, no good word for this particular category of off-white that Greek and Italian fell into, save for "wog". Put it this way: it has been a very, very long time since I've seen an Italian called a "wog", or call themselves a wog.

I do know that back in 2014, a Greek friend of mine from Geneva travelled to Australia and came back complaining that he got hassled at the airport in ways his Asian-American wife didn't, and we (I and an Aussie-Asian friend) had to break it to him that he had been racially profiled. He was BAFFLED.

The cultural tie of the Orthodox churches has a certain amount do with it. I remember sitting in a dentist chair in Marrickville (traditionally a "greek suburb") listening to my dentist (Lebanese catholic) and her assistant (Muslim, from somewhere in the levant) talk about their sons. This was during the Arab Spring, I think - there had been demonstrations in Hyde Park, and their sons had both recieved text messages saying "the aussies" were going to show up and fight them. Both women were worried, because both of their sons had been too young to get caught up in the 2005 Cronulla riots, but that's exactly how those riots started. Text messages going around saying "the aussies" were going to fight "the wogs". On the "aussie" side the motives were definitely islamophobic, but on the other side, there were Greek orthodox lads turning up because their mates the Syrian orthodox lads were going because the syrian orthodox lads were going where the other Arabs were going, and so on down the line.

My suspicion is that whether or not a Greek person is actually going to be negatively racialised is, these days, very much dependent on class as much as actual ethniticy.

I keep getting instagram ads for a Italian-Australian comedian whose whole bit is 90s nostalgia about the comic difference between 90s childhoods of "us Italians" and the "Aussies". But that feels... dated, a distinction that has faded off since the 90s. Whereas I'm not sure it has tapered off so much for the Greek community.

I'm also pretty sure that the current heavily reactionary movements among some Orthodox communities and the Maronite Catholic church in Sydney (we have a local SPLINTER Maronite bishop) are going to significantly shape the racialisation of MENA communities, in the long run. We're seeing white evangelical protestants arm in arm with lebanese Catholics, insisting on their collective claims to real aussie values as opposed to those degenerate gays in Newtown - and both groups forming values-based alliances with Muslim conservatives, and appealing to the sense of traditionalism of their Chinese and south-east asian neighbours as well. I don't know how that's going to turn out in the long run, because islamophobia runs just as strong as the white evangelical desire to find new family values voters. But I look at the way that One Nation talk to MENA Christian groups and I think about that book "How the Irish Became White", which argues that American Irish communities effectively bought themselves whiteness by not opposing slavery or, later, segregation. There is something very, very complex going on, alarming though it is.